Focus on the Family Broadcast

Preview:

John Cooper: Okay, first of all, it’s important to recognize this. You don’t have to bring your bible to school in order to live out your faith because God’s word is hidden in your heart. But if you choose to express your faith by bringing it, just realize that you are representing Christ in everything that you do. So the bible should remind you that you are called to love the unloving, forgive those who sin against you, and even pray for your enemies.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well that is John Cooper. He’s the lead singer, songwriter and producer for the Christian rock band, Skillet. And today on Focus on the Family, John will describe his passion for God’s word and the importance of sharing godly truth with others. Thanks for joining us. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John Cooper is a wonderful advocate for Christ. He’s so bold in his faith and a great role model for all of us about how to speak the truth and love in today’s culture. He’s a blogger, an author who’s willing to challenge cultural trends and world views that run contrary to the bible. And what we’re about to hear is a conversation that you, John, recorded with John Cooper about his book, Awake and Alive to Truth: Finding Truth in the Chaos of a Relativistic World. I was away from the office at the time and I’m a little jealous that you were, uh, able to do the interview, John, but on your own.

John F.: Well I enjoyed hanging out with John. He is a-

Jim: (laughs)

John F.: … super nice guy and great heart. Um, we should mention, Jim, as a ministry, we’re really thrilled that John Cooper is partnering with Focus as a spokesperson for our Bring Your Bible to School campaign this year in October.

Jim: Yeah. Bring Your Bible to School is a nationwide student-led movement where kids of all ages, grade school through college, can express their faith by literally carrying their bibles to school. They can encourage their classmates with the gospel and celebrate the religious freedoms we all have to be public witnesses for Christ. A- we’re about a month away from Bring Your Bible to School Day on October 7th, uh, so please encourage your kids to sign up and participate in this wonderful event.

John F.: We’ve got all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Jim, here’s how I began the conversation-

Jim: (laughs)

John F.: … with John Cooper. Well, John, we’re so glad to have you here at Focus on the Family. And, um, you reached out to us an- and expressed, uh, support for Bring Your Bible to School a couple of years ago. And you’ve done some videos for us, uh, to help promote Bring Your Bible to School. What drew your interest, uh, toward that, uh, day that we celebrate Bring Your Bible to School?

John C.: Yes, I did. I love Bring Your Bible to School. Um, I’m quite passionate about it. I, like hopefully a lot of people listening, am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. It is the power of God for salvation for all who believe. I- what I imagine is an army of young people so passionate about the word of God that they not only carry their bibles where they go but they read their bibles, they believe that the bible is the foundation of all truth. And so I’m kind of quite passionate about telling young people, hey, you live in a- you live in a time when people are not shy about saying what they believe. In fact (laughing), whatever school you go to, you’re probably being taught things that we, as Christians, would find offensive. The world is not shy about saying who they are and what they believe, so why should we be shy about the words of life?

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: You know? So I’m very passionate about Bring Your Bible to School. I think it’s a fantastic program. So I love that-

John F.: Hm.

John C.: … there’s that element of we are ambassadors of Christ.

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: There’s that element of accountability. I’m just a fan. So here we are.

John F.: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that.

John C.: (laughs)

John F.: So, uh, how do you tell your kids that we believe the bible is the authoritative word of God? It’s true, truth. How do you share wha- that conviction with your kids in a world that entirely dismisses, it seems, the scripture-

John C.: Hm.

John F.: … and a lot of people in the church don’t even believe the bible is authoritatively true?

John C.: That’s crazy, isn’t it? The last thing you just said (laughs), you think, w- how are you believing in a God when His word isn’t authoritatively true? But you’re right. You know, the statistics on- I think that the statistics I said on t- the millennial generation is something like 3% of professing millennial Christians, 3%, believe in objective truth.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: And I found that statistic just bewildering. Uh, you know, I think- I, I’m really a product of great, great pastors. And I’m so thankful for my pastors, my elders, my church leaders, ever since I was in college and even before then. And we may get into talking about my mom. My mom was-

John F.: Yeah. We will, yeah.

John C.: … kind of the, yeah, the pillar i- in my house of, of, uh, you know, the spiritual pillar, if you will. But I’m a product of so many great pastors. And I learned this amazing thing that I’d like to share-

John F.: Yup.

John C.: … from my pastor right when I was about to have my child, my first child. And he just said, “John, you need to understand (laughs) that training your children in truth, that’s not my job.” That’s what he said. “That’s not my job-

John F.: Hm.

John C.: … that’s not a school’s job. That’s not some preacher on TV’s job. That is your job as the man of the household. That is the parent’s job to train your children.” And I realized, oh, I guess I did kinda think that was the church’s job. Send my kids to Sunday school, to vacation bible school, or whatever programs we’re doing, which of course are, are wonderful programs. But I hadn’t quite thought about the fact that I need to be the teacher in the house. And so I think, for me, we began this sort of, uh, very intentional bible training, you know, when my kids were really, really small. And I love to say this because it wasn’t my idea, it was my pastor’s thing, but I saw the truth of it. And then we get to live in the blessing of that, of training our children. So we would pray with the kids. We’d read the bible to our kids. We’d explain deep theological concepts in really simple ways to our children. And we would worship together. And so I think having that, um, r- realizing that you’re not sending your kids off to school for the school to teach them whatever “truth” (laughing), that’s in dreaded air quotes if you can’t see me, “truth”, whatever truth the school’s teaching them. No, no. The kids know where the foundation of truth is-

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: … and that lies in the word of God. And so we would just try to every day show small, sometimes- sometimes insignificant examples of why that is. But those insignificant things became very important life lessons.

John F.: Yeah, little things add up. And you’re modeling your daily conviction. Uh, you’re showing that truth, um, is real in your life. That does go to your kids. That’s where we have to be intentional as parents. Uh, so John, uh, relativism is really the religion of the day, right? I mean, it’s whatever. So talk a little bit-

John C.: Whatever (laughing)-

John F.: … talk a little bit more, give a, a little more rounded definition of relativism and why that is, uh, something that we wanna help our kids avoid.

John C.: Yes. Uh, you know, I think that you just said the best definition I’ve ever heard of relatism- whatever. (laughs) It’s true. You know, um, I do think it’s important. And I know some people listening might be like, oh man, we’re talking about relativism again or truth again. And, but- the culture at large today does not believe in objective truth. And, as you just said, a lot of Christians don’t believe in objective truth. And so relativism is basically, uh, an offshoot of post modernism that says that there’s no objective truth and that means there’s no objective reality. So relative truth is basically whatever I believe within myself. I don’t need God. I don’t need anything external. All I need to do is look inside my heart, be my truest self, my authentic self, my truth. Eh- that’s where those things come from. And so imagine being a kid, imagine being a teenager raised in a society that believes that truth is to be found within your heart, with no external influence at all. And feeling that chaos, being thrown on the waves day after day after day, and knowing that whatever you’re told you have to believe now, it might be considered heresy tomorrow.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: It might get you canceled tomorrow.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: Might loo- make you lose friends tomorrow. They are feeling that pressure. And it is causing this incredible anxiety with young people. And which it should, because it’s chaos.

John F.: Ye- you kind of came face to face with, uh, a challenge yourself in the band. Uh, y- you were told by a record executive to not talk so much about Jesus. Explain what that was about and, and how that impacted you.

John C.: (laughs) Right. (laughs) Yeah. Yes, uh, it, it- that is true. And it wasn’t a record executive but it was someone in the business.

John F.: Okay.

John C.: And this is so important for the trajectory of why I’m here today talking to you, actually. Because this conversation really opened my eyes to something. And it was basically after a gig. We were on tour with some mainstream acts, very popular acts. We were opening. And we were just beginning to kind of hit a little bit. But yeah, this guy, um, and in his defense, he was being very nice. I mean, he singled me out and he pulled me aside and said, “John, I wanna tell you this ’cause no one else was gonna tell you. You guys, I believe, could be the biggest band in the world. I think you could be the next biggest band in the world. You guys have the look. You’ve got the sound. You’ve got girls in your band. Everybody’s looking for girls. That’s girl power time, right?”

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: “And, um, you guys also sing about very spiritual things.” And now people are really- this is 2010, 11, 12. If you remember the self-help movement-

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: … was just becoming really in style. So all of this is happening. And he’s saying, “People really want spiritual music and you’ve already got it. You’ve been doing it.” And he said, “So, it’s your time but you have got to disassociate from Christianity. You’ve got to stop talking about Jesus so much. Don’t do Christian interviews. Don’t do Christian music festivals. If people ask you what your song’s about, I’m not telling you to lie. Just don’t offer up the information about Jesus.” And then he said something else. And this is what got me. And this is what I think is interesting. He said, “But, John, think about the good you could do for your faith if you got rich and famous. Think about what you could do for Jesus if you stopped talking about Jesus.” And that was a, a turning point in my career because there was a little bit of truth in what he was saying. Just like there’s a little bit of truth in what the serpent was saying to Eve-

John F.: That’s convicting.

John C.: … right? Same thing.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And I thought, you know what? Something is changing in the way that the world is viewing truth. And the way that we are m- beginning to manipulate things in order to reach a desired outcome.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And I went to the boss. I told my wife about the conversation. We prayed about it. And it was instant- almost instantaneous, I know that that is not the Lord.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: I know that that is not the Lord. And if this is gonna be the new- the new world, the new culture, the new, uh, way that people are, you know, trying to kind of steer Christians into a new kind of activism into Christianity, that is void of the actual gospel of Christ, I know that I need to be vocal against that move.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: And so he was trying to help me, trying to get me to be quiet. And, and it had the opposite effect. (laughs)

John F.: Well (laughs), I know that his heart was to help you-

John C.: Yes, it was-

John F.: … but it didn’t really feel like it was helping, did it?

John C.: No, no.

John F.: So, well, we’re talking today on Focus on the Family to John L. Cooper. He has written a book Awake and Alive to Truth. It’s about his faith journey. It’s full of really rich, deep stuff. And so get a copy from us here at Focus on the Family. Be encouraged by what John is sharing. Uh, find some inner conviction from his stories and, uh, the truth that he speaks about here. Uh, get your copy from us today. Our website is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800-A-FAMILY. Well, John, I so appreciate the passion from which you speak. And as we talked about beforehand, uh, I’ve seen, uh, references in this book to, uh, books that I read in seminary. So yeah for you-

John C.: (laughs)

John F.: … for going deep on this stuff. Uh, let’s roll back. You had, um, a really- you mentioned this. Your mom was kind of the key person in your spiritual formation. Share a little bit about her and tell us that story.

John C.: Yes. My mom. You know, I love talking about my mom. My mom was a Jesus freak. That’s really the only word I can use to describe it. I think most people these days know what a Jesus freak is, right? Fanatical about Jesus. My mom would, um, I mean, ever since I can remember, from being two, three years old, I remember my mom walking up to people at the grocery store, “Can I tell you about Jesus?”

John F.: Oh my-

John C.: You know? Strangers. “Y- uh, I feel like there’s something I need to pray for you about. Is there anything you’d like me to pray for?” Um, and I had the benefit of memorizing scripture from the time I was a- a- just a kid. I mean, three years old. I had an older brother and he was four years older than me. And so before school u- he went to school every day. I would sit at the table with my mom and my older brother and my mom would read bible stories. We would read a proverb a day. And we would have to memorize scripture. We’d have to pray. And, and those things stuck with me my whole life. And so I can never remember a time when I- when I disbelieved in God. I, I can’t remember a time when I doubted that He was real. And I really just think that’s from a mom that prayed and was-

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: … diligent. And I gave my life to Christ when I was five years old. I was in my room. I was alone.

John F.: This is the rather dramatic spiritual encounter, if I recall.

John C.: It, it was kinda quite the, uh, dramatic. And, you know, I- sometimes I’m, I’m basically, short version, there’s a longer version in the book. But short version is just that I just had a sense of someone in my room. And I had a sense, in my head, of the words came into my head, not audibly, “You need to give your heart to Jesus.” And of course, I knew who Jesus wa- I knew that Jesus died for me. I knew that I was a sinner. I knew all these things from my mom’s teaching. But so I- just in my bedroom, I just said, okay. Jesus, I give my heart to you. And that- I remember thinking that doesn’t feel like enough has happened for how real the moment.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And I just remember saying, “Jesus, you’re my boss.” And that was, you know, a word that my parents used to use. Because I’m the boss. My parents used to use that word. And I just realized Jesus is my boss. And, in the end, I, I wrote about it ’cause in the end that’s actually a childlike deep theology of the lordship of Christ. That’s what He is. He’s the boss. What Christ says is true. What Christ says is reality. What Christ says- it- you do it because it’s right. You get yourself in line with the word of God. And so He became my boss as, um, as a kid. And He, He’s never let me down.

John F.: Huh.

John C.: Yeah.

John F.: Well, um, despite what you just said there, He’s never let you down, your life has not been without pain.

John C.: Yes.

John F.: And, um, you lost your mom when, um, she and you were both pretty young, if I’m not mistaken.

John C.: Yeah. Yeah. My mom was very young. She probably was about 35.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: My- she, uh, at- got cancer when I was in sixth grade. But what I remember of my mom’s last three years of life was just brutal chemo, her being sick, constantly sick. And, um, obviously, loo- you know, she lost her hair. But she, you know, shriveled down to this 95 pound … You know, it was such a horrible experience. It was a terrible- it was a terrible thing to be in a house with someone who’s dying. It, it’s something that you never forget. But my mom never ever stopped talking about the goodness of God.

John F.: Hm.

John C.: Never stopped talking about I know that all things work together for the good of those who love Christ according to his purpose. Never stopped talking about it. And she would just drill it into me. If I do die, you cannot be mad at God ’cause God is always good.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And that became a- that became a foundational truth in my life that saved me from so many- so many things.

John F.: Yeah, well, of course she did die.

John C.: Yes.

John F.: And despite her charge not to get angry at God, did you? I mean, I, I can only imagine the loss. I can’t say that I’ve experienced that. Um, so did you get mad at God?

John C.: I, I would say this. Uh, I think in general, I did not get mad at God. Um, I think I handled it pretty well. But I did have a very dark period in which I was just angry at the world. I don’t think I was angry at God. I had a pretty good understanding that God was good, that God was in control. What happened for me, to be honest, was, you know, afterwards, my dad got remarried a couple of months after my mom died. And my stepmother, her husband had died only a few months prior to my mom’s death-

John F.: Hm.

John C.: So this is a recipe for disaster. And obviously you’re dealing … You know, I’m- like I said, I’m an adult now. I’m a dad now. And I look back at that and I go, I can’t imagine what my dad was going through at the time. You know, my dad would’ve only been 38 years old. Lost his wife with three boys. Didn’t know what to do. So it was just a bad situation. And I would have this anger that would come a lon- no one knows what I’m going through. Nobody understands. And I’m praying but I don’t feel any better. I still believe the bible but I don’t feel any better.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And that led to what also became an amazing encounter in my life-

John F.: Hm.

John C.: … alone at night. And I said to God, I was just like, “I just don’t think you’re listening to me. I know you hear me but I don’t think you’re listening to me. Nothing’s changing and I’m so angry. Not at you, I’m just angry.” And I remember praying. And I said, “I know that you’re my Lord. And I know that you’re my savior.”

John F.: You’re my boss.

John C.: You’re my boss, if you will. “But would it be okay … ” I get emotional every time I talk about this. “Would it be okay if I could know you as a friend?” And again, this voice came in my head and said, “Not just a friend, a daddy.” And that- it wrecked me. It wrecked me so much. And all of a sudden, the bible verses started coming back to me-

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: … that Christ is a friend of sinners. That we cry Abba Father-

John F.: Yes.

John C.: … Daddy Father. And all of a sudden, the scriptures come back to me. And I say, what is wrong with me? How can I forget that God has never left me and that He is a father, that He is a friend to sinners. He is a father to the fatherless, the bible says. It was- the moment was great, but it was reminding myself of the word over and over. And then, and I know this is gonna be remarkable to some people, within five or six years of that, it began to be not just that I was fine with it, it began to be a celebration-

John F.: Hm.

John C.: … and I know that sounds crazy to s- people who are sufferin- people who are listening right now saying, “I don’t think I could ever celebrate the things I’ve suffered.” I hear you. But with Christ you can. I began to celebrate the things that happened in my life because I know that God uses them to glorify Himself. And I know that God uses them in order to make me more Christlike-

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And I- I- once that celebration comes, oh, that’s just such a beautiful- that’s peace, that’s worship to me.

John F.: You mentioned earlier, John, how you and your wife, Cori, right-

John C.: Yes, that’s right.

John F.: … how you all have incorporated really regular traditions and patterns in your home around the bible, around worship. Um, help the parent who’s saying, “I like it but I’m, I’m not that. But I hear what John is saying-

John C.: (laughs)

John F.: … so where do I start?”

John C.: Where do I start?

John F.: I mean, do I just get a good book? Or, or what do I do?

John C.: Right. Great. Great question. I think the first thing I- I would say is this. Um, I wanna make sure that everybody hears me. Again, I did not do this perfectly and I wish I could go back and do it better, to be honest. But it did transform my life. And I will kind of tell you what I was taught from my pastor-

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: … and just kinda pass it down. You know, I’m gonna relate it to this. I’m gonna relate it to working out.

John F.: Okay.

John C.: All right? I love to-

John F.: Which a lot of people don’t like to do. So that’s a good parallel.

John C.: It’s a good analogy, right?

John F.: (laughs)

John C.: Everybody’s … All right. You have the kind of people … This is gonna make some people laugh. Some of the dads out there or- are gonna laugh. And some of the moms listening right now are gonna laugh because this is your husband. A lot of dudes are like, “If I can’t work out for two hours a day, then I’m not gonna work out at all.”

John F.: Hm.

John C.: There’s that feeling, right?

John F.: That all or nothing-

John C.: If I’m gonna do this-

John F.: … approach. Yeah.

John C.: … it’s full on P90X, no sugar, no carbs, and, you know? A- and if not, they’re like, oh, what’s the point? But in reality, most all trainers will tell you, you don’t need to work out two hours a day. If all you can do is jog for 10 minutes a day, then do that. It’s going- the long-term effect is much better than you going crazy like a workout animal for two months straight and then falling off the wagon-

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: … and, and eating pizza and ice cream for every meal.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: Everybody knows that. Spiritual things are, are the same way. You don’t have to be a genius. You don’t have to understand deep theology of the bible. All that we did was I went and bought a worship CD. And now you don’t even need to buy worship CDs. It’s on Spotify or, or wherever. And literally all that I would do is I would turn on some sort of worship song. I don’t care what genre it is. You choose your genre, okay? And, have my kids, we would come together. And I would say, hey, for the next 10 minutes, we’re only talking about 10 minutes, we’re going to sing songs to Jesus. That’s what we’re gonna do. And we’re not gonna color during, you know? You’re gonna put your coloring book down. Because you’re going to give honor to God when we sing to Him. It’s only 10 minutes. And then I would- sometimes I would pause the CD and I would explain what the song means. You know what I mean?

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: What does this song mean? And one of the greatest moments is we were singing, I don’t remember what song. It might have been even an old, like, uh, Jesus I adore you. It may have been that one, which is a really old one.

John F.: Uh, yeah. You’re making me feel a little old.

John C.: Uh, pretty old, right?

John F.: (laughs)

John C.: Lay my life before you. I remember talking to my, you know, four-year-old daughter. Do you know what the word adore means? Uh, if you just pause, do you know what it means to adore? Like in … She’s like, “I think it just means, like, you know, love.” And I’m like, “Well, let me- ” So I’m explaining to her. And this idea just comes in my head. And I said, “Do you remember when you lost your Care Bear?” She had these Care Bears.

John F.: Oh, mm-hmm.

John C.: And she had, like, this set. And then one’s pink and purple and green. And she had lost the pink one. And she was going into a full-on life will never be the same ’cause I lost-

John F.: (laughs) It was a crisis-

John C.: … the pink … that she has to have. And I said, “Do you remember that?” And, you know, you, you adore this Care Bear. You like it more than anything else that you own. You’ve, you know, that is what it means to adore something. And so I explained to my daughter, that’s the way that we are supposed to adore Jesus. His love is better than life, the bible says. So, I just explained that to her. And then I said, “So now when we sing this song, I want you to sing the song to Jesus … ” And so we sing it. And at the end, it was just 10 minutes of worship, I say, “Now we’re gonna pray together. Now you have to pray.” And my daughter … Oh, it was one of the most awesome moments of my entire life. My four-year-old daughter is like praying. She’s like, “Dear Jesus, I love you and I adore you. You are better than Care Bears!” And-

John F.: (laughs)

John C.: … I was like, you know what? That is one of the best moments of my whole life.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: So-

John F.: What a heartfelt prayer.

John C.: That’s what it is.

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: And the truth is is, you know, here I am, an adult, do I love Christ more than whatever my Care Bear is?

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: Do I love Jesus more than the Green Bay Packers? You know? Or whatever your-

John F.: Yeah.

John C.: … pet thing is that you love. Is it actually under the lordship of Christ or do we sometimes love it more than Jesus? It was a meaningful moment. So I really wanna encourage parents, you don’t have to go absolutely crazy in this. There are some fantastic materials. You guys know all about the materials-

John F.: We’ve got a bunch at our website. Yeah.

John C.: … um, that I’ve just found. My kids have loved reading as a family. You read for five minutes, you discuss it for five minutes. You sing to Jesus for five minutes. Last thing I wanna say, especially to the dudes listening. To all the men listening, it is so very important that your kids hear you pray. You know? Some dads are, uh, we’re just embarrassed. We don’t want anybody to hear us pray. That sentiment-

John F.: I can’t do a big, lofty prayer. And so it’s that all or nothing-

John C.: Yes.

John F.: … uh, that you’re talking about it.

John C.: That’s right. Your kids need to hear you pray to Jesus. And they need to hear you express love for God. And they need to hear you sing to your savior. That’s a beautiful thing. So don’t be embarrassed. Don’t be ashamed. And, uh, you will be amazed. It’ll take you, like, seven days. Seven days, your kids will be- they will just be changed from it. You know how kids change really quickly?

John F.: Mm-hmm.

John C.: It doesn’t take all that much. That, that’s been my experience anyway.

John F.: Well, it was such a great conversation with John Cooper, who leads the Christian rock band, Skillet. And as we mentioned, John also agreed to be the spokesperson for Focus on the Family’s Bring Your Bible to School campaign. That’s coming up next month on October 7th.

Jim: Yes. And we hope your kids will participate this year. Bring Your Bible to School is a great way for children to be bold in their faith and share God’s love and truth within their sphere of influence. And, you know, this program isn’t just for kids. We’ve developed some incredible discipleship and spiritual growth opportunities for the whole family in our Live It challenges that we post on our website every month. These challenges encourage you and your children to dig into God’s word to learn more about serving others, the power of encouragement and why being pro-life is a good thing. So I urge you to check it out. Bring Your Bible to School Day is on October 7th, John, as you said. And our monthly Live It challenges are ongoing throughout the year.

John F.: You’ll find details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: And as we close today, I’d like to invite you to come into ministry with us, a monthly pledge to Focus on the Family is a great way to do that. Uh, a regular gift each month helps us stabilize our budget and allows us to better plan for ministry growth and outreach in the days ahead. And, of course, we know a pledge may be more than you can do right now. A one-time gift helps too. And allow me to say thank you for your generosity by sending you a copy of John Cooper’s book, Awake and Alive to Truth, as our way of saying thank you.

John F.: You can donate by calling 800-A-Family or, again, at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team here, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.